Podcast
Welcome to the RT Dialogue podcast where we strive to build community, make connections, and share and learn best theory and practices within Restoration Therapy.
All episodes are on Spotify, Apple and YouTube.
We would love to have you on the podcast to talk about how Restoration Therapy has impacted you. If you would like to schedule a time to be on the podcast you can email us at restorationtherapydialogue@gmail.com.
If you are looking for other ways to get connected and participate, please visit our How to Get Involved page.
Welcome to Season 2 with your co-hosts Lance Ahl and Rhett Smith
Season 2 | Episode 69 | Forgiveness Through the Lens of the RT Model with Rhett Smith & Lance Ahl
“Forgiveness is the name of love practiced among people who love poorly. The hard truth is that all people love poorly. We need to forgive and be forgiven every day, every hour increasingly. That is the great work of love among the fellowship of the weak that is the human family.” (Henri Nouwen)
Welcome to Episode 69 of the RT Dialogue Podcast.
We are thankful that you have joined us for what we believe is a great episode on a topic that has come up a lot in conversation in the Restoration Therapy community -- forgiveness.
In this episode we look at the forgiveness model in Restoration Therapy, while exploring different different lenses through which we have approached it.
Twice in the last six months, I (Rhett) have presented the Restoration Therapy forgiveness model to ReEngage groups, while also using the handout created by Lance and Jennifer Ahl, where they look at theologian Paul Tillich’s relational dynamics of justice, love and power.
[Their handout adapted from the Restoration Therapy model developed by Dr. Terry Hargrave -- along with slides Rhett used]
Forgiveness Handout (1)
747KB ∙ PDF file
Mentioned in the Episode
Exclusion and Embrace: A Theological Exploration of Identity, Otherness, and Reconciliation by Miroslav Volf
Love, Power and Justice: Ontological Analyses and Ethical Applications by Paul Tillich
Our professor, Theologian Dr. Ray Anderson -- specifically the book, The Gospel According to Judas: Is There a Limit to God’s Forgiveness?
Fuller Studio -- The Gospel According to Judas (Ray Anderson)
Season 2 | Episode 68 | “Core Tension” Between Emotional Self-Regulation and Co-Regulation with Steven Perez & Michael Piciucco
Welcome to Episode 68 of the RT Dialogue!
This episode came about after a text exchange between us and Michael Piciucco regarding a “core tension” that he has noticed in the conversation around emotional self-regulation and co-regulation -- specifically how these play out in Restoration Therapy and EFT. So we asked him to come on and discuss this.
Michael also invited on our good friend Steven Perez as a conversation partner on this topic.
I won’t say more about the conversation at this point as we really dive into the weeds -- so please tune and check it out.
Mentioned in the Episode
EFT and Sue Johnson
The Prophet (On Marriage) by Kahlil Gibran
The Mindful Marriage by Ron and Nan Deal & Terry and Sharon Hargrave
On Marriage by Kahlil Gibran
Then Almitra spoke again and said, And what of Marriage, master?
And he answered saying:
You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
Ay, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other’s cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
Give your hearts, but not into each other’s keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other’s shadow.
Season 2 | Episode 67 | Special Guest, Masters Level Intern & RT Therapist in Training (and new interventions) -- Justin Metz
Welcome to Episode 67 of the RT Dialogue Podcast. We are so thankful to have you joining us on this journey.
This is a little bit of a different episode in that we had a master’s level student (Dallas Theological Seminary) on the podcast. Justin Metz is currently training in Restoration Therapy, having already completed Level I with Dr. Terry Hargrave this last February, while also completing Relate Strong training at seminary with Dr. Gary Barnes.
Justin is on staff at The Marriage Place in Frisco, TX, which is great, since we (Rhett) can meet up for coffee regularly to discuss all things RT. We really were inspired by the interventions that Justin is creating and already using in therapy work, and the way that he and his wife have been leading a Relate Strong group at their church.
It’s a lot of fun to see the way that varying interventions within the RT community are being built upon and used in different ways -- we see this in Justin as he was inspired by some interventions that Migum Gweon discussed on Episode 34 of this podcast, and Tanner Hargrove’s intervention on Episode 26 of this podcast. We think you will especially love his practice of the Pain and Peace Cycle through use of rearview mirror hanging tags...brilliant. And it was insightful to hear how his experience as a ballroom dancer/instructor over the years has informed his couple’s work.
Enjoy the episode.
Mentioned in the Episode
Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes are High by Joseph Grenny, Kerry Patterson, Ron McMillan, Al Switzler, and Emily Gregory
Sue Johnson and Dancing the EFIT Tango
Season 2 | Episode 66 | Special Guest, RT Therapist & Assistant Professor, Dr. Corynne Keirnes
Welcome to Episode 66 of the RT Dialogue.
It was great to have Dr. Corynne Keirnes on this episode. Corynne is a graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary’s MFT program, where she studied under Dr. Terry Hargrave. She is a Level II Certified Restoration Therapist, and Assistant Professor of Clinical Psychology at Vanguard University where she teaches classes and trains students. She and her husband Cameron are also the founders of New Horizon Integrative Therapy in the Denver, CO area.
We love that there is another professor at a university teaching students about Restoration Therapy, and helping them practice the model. Her love for intensives is also really exciting, and something we dive into in this episode.
Mentioned in the Episode
Whole Brain Child: 12 Revolutionary Strategies to Nurture Your Child’s Developing Mind by Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson
Season 2 | Episode 65 | New York Times Best Selling Author, Brad Stulberg
Welcome to Episode 65 of the RT Dialogue.
We were so excited that Brad Stulberg agreed to come on our podcast and discuss his latest book, New York Times Bestseller, The Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World.
Brad is the author of four books, and it was his 2017 book, Peak Performance that introduced me to his work (Rhett), and led me to start jotting down notes in the pages (i.e. pain cycle, peace cycle, 4 steps, etc.) of his work that reminded me a lot of the process of change in Restoration Therapy.
In 2001 I fell in love with his book (Rhett) The Practice of Groundedness and was passing it out to executives that I was coaching as they were trying to lead organizations through COVID.
Brad writes, speaks, coaches, and is on faculty at the University of Michigan’s graduate faculty of Public Health. He is also the co-founder of the Growth Equation with Steve Magness.
As I share in the podcast, Brad’s superpower is that he reads all the important work, takes all of that information and knowledge, and knows how to synthesize and convey it in simple, easy to understand writing. It’s a gift. And every time I’ve read one of his books, I think to myself, “this is the book I wish I could have written.”
Brad’s latest book covers a lot about the importance of mastering one’s craft, and moving away from performative behavior towards deep connection and transformation -- all things that we feel are important about the work and practice of Restoration Therapy -- both as a model, and as a community.
Thanks for coming on the podcast Brad, we really enjoyed our time with you on and off the air.
Mentioned in the Episode
The Practice of Groundedness
Season 2 | Episode 64 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Bryan Snead
Welcome to Episode 64 of the RT Dialogue.
On this episode we welcome RT Therapist Bryan Snead, who is Assistant Director of Counseling at Hill Country Bible Church. We have come to know Bryan over this last year connecting through RT Training and Texas RT Zoom monthly meetings.
Bryan came to Restoration Therapy after journeying through a lot of other models, and on this episode he shares his love of what he has learned along the way, and his love of integrating neuroscience into this work.
Bryan and the counseling center at Hill Country Bible Church have become instrumental as well in helping plan the April Texas Restoration Therapy Gathering -- so thankful for them.
Enjoy the episode!
Mentioned in the Episode
The 7 Emotion Circuits -- Jaak Panksepp
The Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World by Brad Stulberg
Season 2 | Episode 63 | Special Guests, Jeff and Robin Reinke
Welcome to Episode 63 of the RT Dialogue!
On this episode we had the privilege of sitting down with the amazing couple of Jeff and Robin Reinke, who have been so influential in the Restoration Therapy community.
They have quite the story -- both LMFT’s -- Robin pursued licensure and the therapeutic route, whereas, Jeff went the route of ministry. Along the way they trained under Sue Johnson, the Gottmans, and eventually met Terry and Sharon Hargrave (and the rest is history as they say).
Over the years they have poured into people and the community -- Robin in her role of therapist, and Jeff in ministry circle and the development of the Relationship Resource.
It’s hard to capture in words just how much of an impact they have had in the Restoration Therapy community (and beyond), and so we were so thankful to have them on.
Mentioned in the Episode
Free to Love: Transforming Pain into Peace (podcast)
The Refuge Marriage Intensive
Badly Broken Deeply Loved: How to Find God’s Healing, Wholeness & Peace by Jeff Reinke
Season 2 | Episode 62 | Nancy Frigaard & Michael Piciucco on the new Asher Graduate School of Counseling
Welcome to Episode 62 of the RT Dialogue Podcast -- we are so glad that you joined us.
This is a really special episode as we got to sit down with two of our colleagues in the Restoration Therapy community and hear about their launching of the new Asher Graduate School of Counseling. Nancy Frigaard (Episode 45) and Michael Piciucco (Episode 11).
This is a wild story with some really remarkable turn of events on their journey to opening up the Asher Graduate School. Check out their website for more information, but it looks like they will officially launch with a September cohort -- beginning with their Doctor of Ministry degree in Marriage and Family Studies (and soon to be other programs...).
We are really excited for Nancy and Michael and all of the people involved in helping them launch the graduate school. And we are really excited for the RT community as it will be a great place for students to learn and practice the beautiful and life changing Restoration Therapy model.
Mentioned in the Episode
Lead Like it Matters to God: Values-Driven Leadership in a Success-Driven World by Richard Stearns
Born to Be Wild by Steppenwolf (lyrics)
Season 2 | Episode 61 | Obstacle Course Intervention w/Jennifer Smith & Lorenzo Cantoja
Welcome to Episode 61 of the RT Dialogue podcast!
We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from Episode 45. In that episode we introduced you to the work of Nancy Frigaard and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at Freedom Family Counseling.
This is an ongoing intervention series:
Episode 57 -- Lenny the Lizard
Episode 58 -- Pete the Pain Eater
Episode 59 -- Fireballs of Pain & the Truth Shield
Episode 60 -- Empty Chair Bear (ECB)
Nancy is the author of A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn’t in there).
Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on.
In this episode they demonstrate the “Empty Chair Bear (ECB)” intervention, which can be found in A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace.
Season 2 | Episode 60 | Empty Chair Bear (ECB) Intervention w/Jennifer Smith & Lorenzo Cantoja
Welcome to Episode 60 of the RT Dialogue podcast!
We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from Episode 45. In that episode we introduced you to the work of Nancy Frigaard and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at Freedom Family Counseling.
This is an ongoing intervention series:
Episode 57 -- Lenny the Lizard
Episode 58 -- Pete the Pain Eater
Episode 59 -- Fireballs of Pain & the Truth Shield
Nancy is the author of A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn’t in there).
Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on.
In this episode they demonstrate the “Fireballs of Pain & the Truth Shield “ intervention, which can be found in A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace.
Season 2 | Episode 59 | Fireballs of Pain & the Truth Shield Intervention w/Jennifer Smith & Lorenzo Cantoja
Welcome to Episode 59 of the RT Dialogue podcast!
We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from Episode 45. In that episode we introduced you to the work of Nancy Frigaard and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at Freedom Family Counseling.
This is an ongoing intervention series:
Episode 57 -- Lenny the Lizard
Episode 58 -- Pete the Pain Eater
Nancy is the author of A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn’t in there).
Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on.
In this episode they demonstrate the “Fireballs of Pain & the Truth Shield “ intervention, which can be found in A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace.
Season 2 | Episode 58 | Pete the Pain Eater Intervention w/Jennifer Smith & Lorenzo Cantoja
Welcome to Episode 58 of the RT Dialogue podcast!
We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from Episode 45. In that episode we introduced you to the work of Nancy Frigaard and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at Freedom Family Counseling.
This is an ongoing intervention series:
Episode 57 -- Lenny the Lizard
Nancy is the author of A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn’t in there).
Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on.
In this episode they demonstrate the “Pete the Pain Eater” intervention, which can be found in A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace.
Season 2 | Episode 57 | Lenny the Lying Lizard Intervention w/Jennifer Smith & Lorenzo Cantoja
Welcome to Episode 57 of the RT Dialogue podcast!
We are really excited to have back Jennifer Smith and Lorenzo Cantoja, who you may remember from Episode 45. In that episode we introduced you to the work of Nancy Frigaard and part of her team (Jennifer and Lorenzo) at Freedom Family Counseling.
Nancy is the author of A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace, and in this episode (and the ones following) we look at some interventions she uses in the book (and one that isn’t in there).
Jennifer and Lorenzo have so much energy and enthusiasm for the work that they do, and so it was a lot of fun to have them on.
In this episode they demonstrate the “Lenny the Lying Lizard” intervention, which can be found in A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy: Helping Kids Play Their Way from Pain to Peace.
Season 2 | Episode 56 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Cori Page
Welcome to Episode 56 of the RT Dialogue Podcast!
We are so thankful that you listen to the podcast, and we know you will enjoy this episode.
Today, we are excited to welcome Cori Page. Cori is a Level II Restoration Therapy therapist, and the founder and owner of Restoration Therapy of Columbus. Cori is also a Certified Sex Addiction Therapist and EMDR trained. She is passionate about a lot of topics, and we are continually impressed with how she uses RT not just in her therapy sessions, but in her work for advocating social change in her local and broader communities.
Please email Cori if you are wanting to connect with her and/or any of the resources she mentions in this episode.
Mentioned in the Episode
Riverview International Center
Your Pain Has a Name: A Therapist’s Invitation to Understanding to Understanding Your Story and Sorting Out Who You Are from What Hurts by RT therapist Monica DiCristina
Just Peacemaking: The New Paradigm for the Ethics of Peace and War by Glenn Stassen
Extraordinary Relationships: A New Way of Thinking About Human Interactions by Roberta Gilbert
In the episode Cori also mentions her friendship with Fuller grad and therapist Rachel Engels and needs for the Minneapolis community:
Season 2 | Episode 55 | The 7 Vital Components of an Intensive
Welcome to Episode 55 of the RT Dialogue!
We are glad that you have joined us.
If you are liking the podcast, please subscribe to it on Spotify, Apple or YouTube (or subscribe on all 3).
And please recommend to any other people you think would find the content beneficial.
In this latest episode, we discuss the 7 vital components of an intensive. We have both been trained in the intensive model, and spent a number of years on staff helping co-lead marriage intensives (The Hideaway Experience), as well as doing anxiety intensives. Rhett co-developed the Turning from Anxiety intensive model along with Terry and Sharon Hargrave and Tanner Hargrove. And Lance has written about the intensive model extensively in his doctoral dissertation, Arresting Anxiety: Experiential Training Model for Utilizing Intensive Restoration Therapy.
In this episode we discuss the 7 vital components:
focusing on one big goal
secluded environment
hospitality
expert therapists
providing tools
opportunities to practice
power of the group experience
Season 2 | Episode 54 | New Year Goal Setting with Clients
Welcome to Episode 54 of the RT Dialogue Podcast. We appreciate all your support.
This is a shorter episode where we reflect on the beginning of the year, and how we often approach new year’s goals/new habits/etc. with clients. And we each share a couple of the big goals we have in mind this year.
Season 2 | Episode 53 | Lance and Rhett Discuss Currents Events in the RT World (and how you can get involved)
Welcome to Episode 53 of the RT Dialogue.
In this episode Lance and Rhett discuss events happening in the RT community (i.e. consult groups, trainings, gatherings, future summit, etc.), as well as discussing how all of us can bring our gifts into the community and look for areas to serve. Obviously we aren’t aware of everything, so please let us know of RT things happening in your practice and community.
Check out some of the events in the community at our RT Dialogue Substack.
Highlighted Events/Activities
Restoration Therapy Texas Gathering (registration is open/limited spots)
Mark your calendars for Restoration Therapy 2027 Summit in Malibu at Pepperdine (March 5-6, 2027)
Mike Bishop’s Delphi study on The Core Assumptions of Restoration Therapy (click on link to participate)
Opportunities to Get Involved
Write articles/posts for RT Dialogue Substack
Volunteer to help with Summit 2027 (planning, “boots on the ground”, etc.)
Organize local RT gatherings
Etc.
Season 2 | Episode 52 | Special Guest, Dr. Tamara Powell, Assistant Professor of Teaching Practice at University of Colorado at Denver
Welcome to Episode 52 of the RT Dialogue podcast.
This was a real treat for us in getting to interview Dr. Tamara Powell, Assistant Professor of Teaching Practice at the University of Colorado at Denver.
Rhett has known Tamara since 2002 when she started checking out the college ministry he was pastoring at Bel Air Church in Los Angeles. Over the years they have conversed on a lot of topics -- one of them being Restoration Therapy. And now Tamara teaches Restoration Therapy in Week 10 (Peacemaking) of her Communication and Healing class (check our her syllabus on our Substack).
Powell Comm6711 Sp24 Syllabus
4.18MB ∙ PDF file
We cover a lot of ground in this conversation, highlighting her journey to RT, and why and how she uses it in her class. We knew this would be a great conversation and we look forward to more conversations with her on the podcast, and at future events.
Mentioned in this Episode
Chuck DeGroat’s book, Healing What’s Within: Coming Home to Yourself--and to God--When You are Wounded, Weary and, Wandering
St. Patrick’s Breastplate Prayer (section that Tamara highlighted in the prayer)
Christ with me,
Christ before me,
Christ behind me,
Christ in me,
Christ beneath me,
Christ above me,
Christ on my right,
Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down,
Christ when I sit down,
Christ when I arise,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.
Season 2 | Episode 51 | Where RT Therapists Get Stuck in the Therapeutic Process w/Hatty Lee
Welcome to the New Year everyone! And a new season of the RT Dialogue with Lance Ahl and Rhett Smith. We are glad you have joined us.
[FYI: There were some internet connection issues in this episode, but it was a great conversation.]
We kick off the new season with Restoration Therapist Hatty Lee. Hatty is the founder of Oak and Stone Therapy which has practices in Pasadena and Los Angeles. She is also the co-author of the beautiful Indwell Guide, which is an “8-step mental health resource designed to empower individuals through visual storytelling, education, and practical tools.”
In this episode we spend time learning from Hatty where RT Therapists often get stuck in the therapeutic process. Here wide ranging experience as a therapist, supervisor, practice owner, gives her unique insight into some of the ways therapists get stuck in the practice of RT. We also end the episode with some brief thoughts on why she loves doing intensives so much.
Welcome to Season 1 with your co-hosts Lance Ahl and Rhett Smith
Season 1 | Episode 50 | Year End Review with Lance & Rhett
Check out below some of the fun stats from this Season 1...
Welcome to Episode 50 of the RT Dialogue Podcast!
We want to give a huge THANK YOU to all of you who have listened this year.
We launched this podcast on February 16, 2025 with the hopes of connecting the RT community. We wanted to bring on different people within the community who were practicing RT, as well as dive deeper into the model. It’s been a fun adventure for us, and we are eager to start into Season 2 in January 2026.
We spent some time in this last episode going over some fun numbers from our podcast this year, and talking about our hopes for Season 2, as well as our dreams for the RT community as we move into the new year.
So a big THANK YOU again for tuning in!
Here are some fun numbers for our small podcast (as of Dec. 20, 2025):
Spotify/Apple
4,606 downloads of the podcast
740 listening hours
89 followers
303 different unique listeners
52.3% female; 43% male; 4.7% not identified
8 countries listening
Episode 4 with Terry and Sharon most listened to episode of the year.
Top 10% podcast globally for most viewed videos (if you didn’t know already -- you can view the video episode on Spotify as well)
YouTube
1,700 views
374.7 viewing hours
51 subscribers
Episode 7 with Ron Deal was most viewed episode of the year.
Please subscribe to our YouTube
Substack
19,000 views
156 subscribers
22 different states are subscribed
4 countries subscribed (US, Austria, Australia, Mexico)
Episode 18 with Bisola Adediji was BY FAR the most viewed and shared episode of the year....1,238 different emails opened her episode!
Please subscribe to our Substack -- which also now has an updated calendar page and other ways to get involved.
When we started this podcast we weren’t sure who would listen. But we were going to do it anyways, whether anyone listened or not, because we enjoy chatting with each other, with those in the RT community -- and we just love chatting about RT.
But it’s awesome that between all our channels, they were viewed over 25,000 times in the last 10 months. So THANK YOU.
See you in 2026.
Lance, Rhett and RO
Season 1 | Episode 49 | What are the books we reference a lot in therapy?
Welcome to Episode 49 of the RT Dialogue.
As we near the end of the year we wanted to take an episode to reflect on a few of the books that we find ourselves referencing a lot in therapy over the years.
Honestly, we could have spent hours on this episode and covered dozens and dozens of books, over so many topics. So maybe in future podcasts we will pause and talk about other books that are important to our work.
We also realize as we got more into the conversation that our book selection doesn’t reflect a very wide diversity of authors in terms of gender, ethnicity, etc. -- just something we wanted to acknowledge. I know we have been reading widely in our personal lives, but it’s not always reflected in the books that we find ourselves referencing consistently.
What are the 3-5 books that you find yourself continually referencing in therapy with clients?
P.S. On this latest episode I totally botched a reference in Parker Palmer’s book Let Your Life Speak, where he talks about his depression. Here is the actual quote:
“After hours of careful listening, my therapist offered an image that helped me eventually reclaim my life. ‘You seem to look upon depression as the hand of an enemy trying to crush you,’ he said. ‘Do you think you could see it instead as the hand of a friend, pressing you down to the ground on which it is safe to stand?’
Amid the assaults I was suffering, the suggestion that depression was my friend seemed impossibly romantic, even insulting. But something in me knew that down, down to the ground, was the direction of wholeness, thus allowing that image to begin its slow work of healing me.
I started to understand that I had been living an ungrounded life, living at an altitude that was inherently unsafe. The problem with living at high altitude is simple: when we slip, as we always do, we have a long, long way to fall, and the landing may well kill us. The grace of being pressed down to the ground is also simple: when we slip and fall, it is usually not fatal, and we can get back up.” (pp. 66)
Books Mentioned in the Episode
In the Name of Jesus: Reflections on Christian Leadership by Henri Nouwen
Let Your Life Speak: Listening for the Voice of Vocation by Parker Palmer
The Silence of Adam: Becoming Men in a World of Chaos by Larry Crabb
A Grief Observed by C. S. Lewis
Breathing Under Water: Spirituality and the Twelve Steps by Richard Rohr
Abba’s Child: The Cry of the Heart for Intimate Belonging by Brennan Manning
Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl
Living the Spiritually Balanced Life: Acquiring the Virtues You Admire in Others by Ray Anderson
Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent and Lead by Brene Brown
Feminist Prayers for My Daughter: Powerful Petitions for Every Stage of Life by Shannon K. Evans
Against the Machine: On the Unmaking of Humanity by Paul Kingsnorth
The Salt Stones: The Seasons of a Shepherd’s Life by Helen Whybrow
The Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World by Brad Stulberg
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquire into Values by Robert Pirsig
Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, The Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit by Brene Brown
Why We Love Baseball: A History in 50 Moments by Joe Posnanski
Season 1 | Episode 48 | Special Guest, RT Therapist and DTS Professor Dr. Erik Salwen
Welcome to Episode 48 of the RT Dialogue.
In this episode we had the privilege of talking with Dr. Erik Salwen who is a Level II RT Therapist and who is also Level I RT Trainer. He is the Associate Professor of Counseling Ministries at Dallas Theological Seminary and is in practice at College Station Christian Counseling in College Station, TX.
Erik is passionate about the “theology of RT” and we discussed at length the role of integration in the Restoration Therapy model -- as well as starting a conversation around the topic of forgiveness (we will have to pick back up on this rich conversation next year on the podcast)
Mentioned in the Episode
Deborah van Deusen Hunsinger
Theology and Pastoral Counseling: A New Interdisciplinary Approach by Deborah van Deusen Hunsinger
Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places: A Conversation in Spiritual Theology by Eugene Peterson
Season 1 | Episode 47 | Network Building with Lance and Rhett
Welcome to Episode 47 of the RT Dialogue Podcast.
As we wind down towards the end of the 2025 year we wanted to chat briefly about a question we both receive quite a bit -- which is how to build a referral network as a therapist?
Rhett has been in his private practice for 15 years while Lance is on year 10. So we have some thoughts and ideas that have been helpful for us that we want to share. But we plan to spend some time in 2026 having some people on to talk about the nuts and bolts of building a healthy practice, but today we just wanted to touch briefly on this topic of network building.
We would love to hear from you. Drop a comment below and let us know some things you have done to build a healthy referral network, or groups of people that you feel are vital for therapists to connect with in the process of building the network.
Season 1 | Episode 46 | Special Guest, Rob Hayes St. Clair -- Parent from Peace Journal
Welcome to Episode 46 of the RT Dialogue Podcast. We are so thankful that you have joined us on this journey, and if you like what you hear we encourage you to do us a favor. You can:
recommend the episode to others
leave a review for us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts (good reviews help others find it)
subscribe to the RT Dialogue Substack for the podcast and other pertinent information in the Restoration Therapy community.
We have a great episode for you with our special guest, Rob Hayes St. Clair. Rob came into RT not by the typical route you have heard from many of our previous guests (i.e. graduate school, training, etc.), but through an encounter in therapy.
In this episode he shares his life changing experience from working on the JH Ranch in Northern California, to encountering RT as a client, and the healing journey that led he and his wife Edith on. (Check out JH Aotearoa)
Part of his mission is to bring the power of Restoration Therapy to others, and one of those ways is through the new Parent from Peace journal. This journal is so beautiful and you can tell that it is truly a labor of love born out of personal transformation. Please go check it out and place your order. We love it and want to support the good work of those in the community.
Mentioned in the Episode
The Life Changing Skill of Emotional Regulation -- Modern Wisdom podcast with special guest Mark Brackett
Families and Faith: How Religion is Passed Down across Generations by Vern Bengtson, Norealla Putney and Susan Harris
The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself by Ron and Nan Deal
Why Your Kids Push Back -- And How to Fix It with Michael Cox and Rob Hayes St. Clair
Season 1 | Episode 45 | Special Guests, Nancy Frigaard, Jennifer Smith & Lorenzo Cantoja
Welcome to Episode 45 of the RT Dialogue Podcast. This was a really fun episode, and if you are able to – we recommend you watch the video version if possible (i.e. props involved).
In this episode we spent time with Nancy Frigaard, Jennifer Smith, and Lorenzo Cantoja.
Nancy is doing a ton of amazing work, and among that, she is owner/clinical director at Freedom Family Counseling in Arizona (serving two locations in the Phoenix area). She is also the author of A Playful Approach to Restoration Therapy, and is President of the newly formed Asher Graduate School of Counseling.
Jennifer is an LAMFT on staff at Freedom Family Counseling and may be most well known for her dancing in the From Pain to Peace (The 4 Steps Song) – you have to check out this catchy tune.
Lorenzo is an LAMFT on staff at Freedom Family Counseling and dove deep with us into their new Play Strong Warriors program.
The three of them (and I would imagine all of the staff at Freedom Family Counseling), bring a really beautiful energy to the work of Restoration Therapy. I love how they are serving their community and partnering with many other organizations to bring restoration and healing.
In this episode we focused on working with children, and discussed some of the innovative programs they are using Restoration Therapy in. We definitely plan to have them back on in the new year to do multiple episodes on interventions, as well as to talk about the new graduate school that Nancy and others are launching in the Phoenix, AZ area.
Season 1 | Episode 44 | Special Guests, Sharon Hargrave & Dee Mayer -- Navigating Relationships During the Holidays
We were really excited to have Sharon Hargrave and Dee Dee Mayer on Episode 44 of the RT Dialogue.
Sharon as many of you already know, is the founder of Relate Strong, and Dee Dee Mayer is the Senior Director of The Boone Center at Pepperdine University -- this is just to name a couple of things these amazing women are currently involved in, or have contributed to.
On this episode we wanted to have them both on to discuss navigating relationships during the holidays. Both bring a wealth of knowledge and personal experience to this topic, and we wish we had more time to record a longer episode...we will definitely be having them back on.
But in a culture that seems to be keen on cutting off relationships, and a pop psychology culture permeated in social media, there is a lot of emphasis on labeling, boundaries, self-care, etc, rather than a pathway to restoration. We wanted to address this head on in this episode.
We hope you enjoy the conversation, and stay tuned for another episode with these two in the near future.
Mentioned in the Episode
Home for Thanksgiving: 7 Common Concerns from Students and How Families Can Prepare for a Great Holiday -- this was the article Rhett mentioned in the episode that Gonzaga sent home to parents.
Family Estrangement Handout
Family Estrangement
52.3KB ∙ PDF file
Season 1 | Episode 43 | Lance and Rhett on the Core Concepts of RT
Welcome to Episode 43 of the RT Dialogue.
In this episode we wanted to spend some time talking about the Core Concepts of Restoration Therapy.
A couple of weeks ago we were hanging out with the Hargraves and some other members of the RT Community, and Terry put up a slide listing the core concepts:
Emotional Regulation -- Self Versus Co
Human Identity and Safety
Pain Chart, Peace Chart
Pain Cycle -- Primary Emotion to Reactive Emotion
Peace Cycle -- Primary Emotion to Choice Actions/Virtue
Four-Steps -- recapitulation of old self/new self
Forgiveness-Four Station of Insight, Understanding, Giving Opportunity for Compensation, Overt Forgiving
What is not on this list, but Terry mentioned as probably becoming a part of it -- the Stop, Turn, Slow intervention we are refining. And Lance wondered on the podcast if “usness“ would be considered a core concept (we will have to ask Terry about that).
One of the things that makes RT unique as well, is that it is a totally integratable model.
We had a lot to discuss this episode, and never got to the Forgiveness concept, which we are saving for a later episode in a few weeks.
But when you think about what makes RT, RT -- it’s these core concepts. If you aren’t doing these core concepts in your practice, then you aren’t doing RT.
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Season 1 | Episode 42 | Special Guest, Therapist Ryan Forsell...Diving Deep in Working with Men
Welcome to Episode 42 of the RT Dialogue. We had a great time and a deep and meaningful conversation with our guest Ryan Forsell on this latest episode. Ryan is a Fuller Theological Seminary graduate (2017), Level II RT trained therapist, and has a private-group practice in Sierra Madre and online. He is deeply passionate about men’s work, and integrating outdoor wilderness experiences working with men.
I (Rhett) was introduced to Ryan like 15-16 years ago through his youth pastor who is a friend of mine, and it’s been cool to see his journey over all these years.
But for this episode we decided to do something different after the episode was recorded -- and that was record a short message prior to the episode. We had used the word disclaimer in a private conversation, but it’s not really even a disclaimer, because there is nothing to deny of taking responsibility for. But it’s more of a notice ahead of listening.
This was the first episode we waded into territory that is controversial in some therapeutic communities, and accepted in others -- the use of psychedelics in therapy. So we just wanted to give listeners notice about it ahead of time.
All that being said, our conversation was deep and meaningful and we look forward to having Ryan back on. And we hope to be a podcast that can both talk about the core tenets of Restoration Therapy -- and what makes RT, RT, in our theory and practice -- praxis. And we also want to thoughtfully engage with people practicing therapy in different ways and who are outside the RT community. We got both in this episode.
There are lots of topics that therapists are often afraid to engage in, even in our own rooms -- politics, sexuality, faith, psychedelics -- just to name a few. And if there is anything we have learned from being a part of the RT community, it is that we want to be safe and loving people to all those we encounter.
Thanks for trusting us with these conversations and we know that we have many exciting episodes ahead.
Mentioned in the Episode
The Soul’s Code: In Search of Character and Calling by James Hillman
Psychedelics and the Soul: A Mythic Guide to Psychedelic Healing, Depth Psychology and Cultural Repair by Simon Yugler
Breathing Under Water: Spirituality and the Twelve Steps by Richard Rohr
Season 1 | Episode 41 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Megan Kuder
Welcome to Episode 41 of the RT Dialogue podcast, with our special guest Megan Kuder.
Megan is the founder of Be Well Counseling Atlanta, and a part of our Restoration Therapy community.
Mentioned in the Episode
Ignatius House in Sandy Springs
Inner Voice of Love: A Journey Through Anguish to Freedom by Henri Nouwen
In the Name of Jesus: Reflections on Christian Leadership by Henri Nouwen
Season 1 | Episode 40 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Michael Cox
Welcome back to the RT Dialogue with Rhett Smith and Lance Ahl. We are really thankful that you have joined us on this journey.
In this episode we return to our first guest, Michael Cox, who was with us in our second episode. Michael is a dear friend and colleague, and it’s always great to connect with him.
Michael wears a lot of professional hats -- running a practice, co-leading marriage intensives, RT Level 1 training, podcast host, and much, much more.
I hope you enjoy this episode as we bounce around a bit, talking about working with adolescents and their families, the challenges of running a practice, his new book project, etc.
Mentioned in the Episode
The HEARTWORK Podcast | Spotify | Apple | YouTube
Season 1 | Episode 39 | Special Guest, Dr. Miyoung Yoon Hammer -- Addressing Issues of Diversity, Cross-Cultural, & Multicultural Through the Lens of Restoration Therapy
We are excited to welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Miyoung Yoon Hammer, Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Theological Seminary.
We had Dr. Hammer on podcast Episode 33, and were eager to have her back on because we just ran out of time to talk with her about all the things we wanted to discuss with her.
In this episode we dive deeper into issues around diversity, multicultural and cross-cultural, through the lens of Restoration Therapy.
Mentioned in the Episode
Advances and Techniques in Restoration Therapy by Terry Hargrave, Nicole Zasowski and Miyoung Yoon Hammer
Many Colors: Cultural Intelligence for a Changing Church by Soong-Chan Rah
Re-Visioning Family Therapy: Addressing Diversity in Clinical Practice by Monica McGoldrick and Kenneth V. Hardy
Season 1 | Episode 38 | Special Guest, RO Smith -- Questions about Learning RT
Welcome to Episode 38 of the RT Dialogue Podcast. We wanted to do something different in this podcast, so we had on special guest RO Smith.
Spotify | Apple | YouTube
RO has been serving in ministry most of his life and was on staff with me (Rhett) at Bel Air Presbyterian Church back in the early 2000’s. He’s currently on staff at Point Loma Presbyterian Church as their Digital Content Creator and Worship Leader. Over the years RO has been asking me questions about the Restoration Therapy model. And this last year while on runs, he has been listening to the podcast with even more curiosity and interest. So back in September RO trained with Meghan Eaken in the RT Coaching model and came away from that inspired and with even more to talk about. He was raving about how great Meghan was in teaching the model!
So we wanted to sit down with RO and just have a conversation about coming into RT and questions he might have. We feel like it’s really important to hear questions from people at the beginning of their RT journey, as there are insights they have that sometimes we overlook when you have been in the model for a long time. We hope to have RO back on soon (and others new to the model) since it feels like we just got started with the questions.
Also, huge thank you to RO who started volunteering his time a few months ago to help us with the sound quality of the podcast.
Season 1 | Episode 37 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Marcial Felan
Such a fun conversation in this episode with Dr. Marical Felan who is a Level II Restoration Therapist, splitting time living and doing therapy between California and Texas.
In this episode we spend a lot of time talking about theological integration and the unique background that Marcial brings to Restoration Therapy with all of his experience in ministry and organizations like Chuck Colson’s Prison Fellowship Ministries and serving on staff with Dr. David Jeremiah at Shadow Mountain Community Church. As well as discussing some of his favorite interventions such as reparenting and the two-screen/split screen.
It was really fascinating listening to his journey to RT and all the varying connections over the years. Just a reminder of how deep and rich the foundation of Restoration Therapy is and the community that Terry and Sharon Hargrave have built and fostered over the years.
Mentioned in the Episode
Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places by Eugene Peterson
Becoming Dallas Willard by Gary Moon
Breathing Under Water by Richard Rohr
Why I Believe by Dr. Henry Cloud
Season 1 | Episode 36 | Special Guest, Ron Deal -- Emotional Coregulation or Self-Regulation?
We welcomed back Ron Deal to the podcast to discuss an important topic that seems to be on everyone’s mind (at least in the RT world) -- and that is the paradigm shifting move from emotional coregulation to self-regulation. And Ron helped us dive deep into the topic.
If you have never met Ron before, he is the President of Smart Stepfamlies and Senior Director of Family Life Blended. We also had him on this podcast way back in Episode 7. Oh, and lest we forget -- Co-Author of The Mindful Marriage along with his wife Nan, and Terry and Sharon Hargrave.
We covered a lot of ground in this conversation about coregulation and self-regulation, but some of the themes that emerged were:
Significant paradigm shift of RT towards self-regulation vs coregulation
AI as the new coregulator
The virtue of self-control as critical to emotional self-regulation
Emotional self-regulation as practice of discipleship
Ron’s scuba diving metaphor for self-regulation vs coregulation
and much more
Bonus What Marriage Ministry Sometimes Gets Wrong Final Rev Aug 2025
386KB ∙ PDF file
Mentioned in the Episode
Practicing the Way by John Mark Comer
Self-Regulation and Self-Control by Roy Baumeister
The Mindful Marriage by Ron and Nan Deal
Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
Season 1 | Episode 35 | Special Guest, RT Founders Terry and Sharon Hargrave
It will come as no surprise to anyone when we say that we are in the midst of a very difficult time in world history. The world is in a very volatile state politically, and the cultural climate is full of tension. And as therapists, this can be complicated terrain to navigate, especially when in the context of one therapy day we interact with clients coming from all different perspectives.
With this in mind, we wanted to bring Terry and Sharon Hargrave onto the podcast to help us better understand the role of Restoration Therapy in shaping us into the type of therapists (and people) who can bring peace into all of this pain.
Terry and Sharon obviously need no introduction in this community. They are the founders of Restoration Therapy and Relate Strong, and so much more. And most importantly, they have trained many of us professionally and walked alongside of us personally.
In this episode we look at their model of how we move from reactivity to polarization to entitled extremism, and the critical role emotional self-regulation plays in volatile times like these. We discuss the work of the therapist using this model, as well as practical ways we can all walk this out everyday in our personal lives.
Here is the handout Terry and Sharon discussed on this episode:
Entitledextremismdiagrams
2.98MB ∙ PDF file
Mentioned in the Episode
The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence
In the Name of Jesus by Henri Nouwen
Exclusion and Embrace by Miroslav Volf
Restoration Therapy by Terry Hargrave and Franz Pfitzer
The Road to Character by David Brooks
Season 1 | Episode 34 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Migum Gweon
Welcome to episode 34 of the RT Dialogue podcast. We are so thankful that you could join us and listen to our latest conversation with our good friend, and RT therapist, Migum Gweon.
If you enjoy this podcast, please take a minute to leave a comment wherever you listen (Spotify, Apple, YouTube, etc.). And we want to give a special shoutout to our friend RO Smith who has bee helping us with our sound and editing. Thank you RO.
Now back to our guest.
Migum has been around Restoration Therapy since the early days and is a huge contributor to the model and the community. She is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in Nevada (also licensed and seeing clients in CA).
Migum is clinically gifted in many areas, but one of the areas we focused on in this episode is cultural and intergenerational family issues, specifically among Koreans. We loved her insight and emphasis on anxiety, and the discussion around forgiveness in the RT model. We also learned some things about K Dramas (specifically When Life Gives You Tangerines).
The latter part of the episode we focus on two excellent therapeutic interventions that she has been working on and utilizing in her work -- Quicksand Analogy and the yet to be named intervention (maybe Incompetent or Transitions intervention).
Mentioned in the Episode
Families in Forgiveness by Terry Hargrave and Nicole Zasowski
Forgiving the Devil by Terry Hargrave
When Life Gives You Tangerines
Season 1 | Episode 33 | Special Guest -- Fuller Professor, Dept. Chair, & RT Therapist, Dr. Miyoung Yoon Hammer
This episode has been a long time coming and we are so excited to present to you Dr. Miyoung Yoon Hammer.
She is also the co-author of Advances and Techniques in Restoration Therapy, and has written a lot of beautiful articles on a number of topics that I highly recommend you check out.
Not only has she been a contributing member to the development of RT, but she has also taught and trained and mentor a lot of members of our community over the years. So it was with great excitement that we had her on this episode. We loved hearing her genesis story with Restoration Therapy (there are some great Terry and Sharon stories in here) and the way she integrates the model theologically.
We had a lot to cover and didn't get around to all of it, so we are looking forward to having her back on very soon.
Mentioned in the Episode
Advances and Techniques in Restoration Therapy
Season 1 | Episode 32 | Special Guest, RT Therapist & Senior Director of Relate Strong at the Boone Center for the Family, Dr. Dee Dee Mayer
Welcome to episode 32 of the RT Dialogue Podcast with our special guest, Dee Dee Mayer.
Dee Dee is the Senior Director of Relate Strong at the Boone Center for the Family at Pepperdine University in Malibu, CA.
The Boone Center for the Family is a remarkable organization and it provides a lot of resources to help equip individuals and organizations -- as it says on their website, "The Boone Center for the Family helps communities within churches, academic institutions, and other Christian organizations by providing trainings and resources to empower the communities' leaders."
We cover a lot of topics such as Relate Strong, the amazing Minister's Marriage Enrichment, and all of the resources that the Boone Center provides. And Dee Dee takes us into a deeper conversation around "usness" and the varying tools and interventions she uses to work with "usness" in relationships.
Resources Mentioned in the Episode
Boone Center for the Family
Minister's Marriage Enrichment
Relate Strong Workshops and Trainings
Relate Strong Leadership Series
Vivek Murthy | Loneliness Epidemic
The Defining Decade by Meg Jay
Season 1 | Episode 31 | Tanner & Jet Hargrove on Marriage Intensives, Summit Planning and Hospitality
In this episode we are back with Dr. Tanner Hargrove (see bio below) and his wife Jet. The two of them are a dynamic duo, and pulled off the lion's share of the work for the RT Summit in Amarillo, TX this last February.
We wanted to pick their brain on all things hospitality -- from creating a hospitable experience for a conference, to the importance of hospitality for The Hideaway Experience marriage intensives they help run...down to the role of hospitality in all of our clinical and private practices.
As we start ramping up planning for the 2027 RT Summit, we will be looking for a lot of help in creating another hospitable experience. So stay tuned for details.
Tanner's Bio
Tanner wears many hats: therapist, clinical director at The Hideaway Experience marriage intensive, professor, Level II RT therapist -- and he co-created the Turning from Anxiety Intensive.
Season 1 | Episode 30 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Dr. Tanner Hargrove -- Multi-Versed Intervention
So we are back with Dr. Tanner Hargrove and his fourth intervention which is multi-versed in its use.
This is a five-part series, so make sure you check out all five this week as they become available:
Multi-Versed intervention
Short Bio
Tanner wears many hats: therapist, clinical director at The Hideaway Experience marriage intensive, professor, Level II RT therapist -- and he co-created the Turning from Anxiety Intensive.
We hope you enjoy this episode on a multi-versed intervention.
Season 1 | Episode 29 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Dr. Tanner Hargrove -- Control Intervention
So we are back with Dr. Tanner Hargrove and his fourth intervention around control.
This is a five-part series, so make sure you check out all five this week as they become available:
Control intervention
Multi-Versed intervention
Short Bio
Tanner wears many hats: therapist, clinical director at The Hideaway Experience marriage intensive, professor, Level II RT therapist -- and he co-created the Turning from Anxiety Intensive.
We hope you enjoy this episode on the intervention for control.
Season 1 | Episode 28 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Dr. Tanner Hargrove -- Trust Intervention
So we are back with Dr. Tanner Hargrove and his third intervention around trust.
This is a five-part series, so make sure you check out all five this week as they become available:
Trust intervention
Control intervention
Multi-Versed intervention
Short Bio
Tanner wears many hats: therapist, clinical director at The Hideaway Experience marriage intensive, professor, Level II RT therapist -- and he co-created the Turning from Anxiety Intensive.
We hope you enjoy this episode on the intervention for trust.
Season 1 | Episode 27 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Dr. Tanner Hargrove -- Intervention #2
So we are back with Dr. Tanner Hargrove and his second intervention around personal responsibility.
This is a five-part series, so make sure you check out all five this week as they become available:
Personal responsibility intervention
Trust intervention
Control intervention
Multi-Versed intervention
Short Bio
Tanner wears many hats: therapist, clinical director at The Hideaway Experience marriage intensive, professor, Level II RT therapist -- and he co-created the Turning from Anxiety Intensive.
We hope you enjoy this episode on the intervention for destructive entitlement.
Season 1 | Episode 26 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Dr. Tanner Hargrove -- Intervention #1
We are really excited to have Dr. Tanner Hargrove on this episode. Tanner wears many hats: therapist, clinical director at The Hideaway Experience marriage intensive, professor, Level II RT therapist -- and he co-created the Turning from Anxiety Intensive.
If you attended the Summit in February in Amarillo, Tanner's interventions in his couple's workshop had everyone talking. So we wanted to have him on the podcast again to talk about some of his interventions.
Tanner has a lot of interventions but we focused on 5 specific ones. We thought that this episode was so important and practical that we created a separate episode for each intervention.
So make sure you check out all 5 this week as they become available:
Destructive entitlement intervention
Personal responsibility intervention
Trust intervention
Control intervention
Multi-Versed intervention
We will definitely have Tanner back on to talk through and demonstrate more interventions.
We hope you enjoy this episode on the intervention for destructive entitlement.
Season 1 | Episode 25 | Re-Release of Ep. 20 with Mike Bishop
As we continue to improve the quality of sound and listener experience on the podcast, we also wanted to re-release Episode 20 with Dr. Mike Bishop.
Lance was having trouble with his mic on this episode, but we were able to clean up the audio a bit more.
Thanks for listening and we hope you enjoy.
Season 1 | Episode 24 | Re-Release of Ep. 23 with Terry Hargrave
We want to apologize for some of the sound issues we have incurred in some previous episodes. We have been testing out new software along the way and learning as we go.
But these conversations are really important to us and so we will continue to improve the listening experience for all of you until we get it just right.
Moving forward we have brought someone on board to help us with sound and technical issues, as well as just the overall quality of the show.
We love doing it and want to keep it simple and down to earth, but improve in areas that make it a more enriching experience for you.
We have gone back and cleaned up the last episode (#23 with Terry Hargrave) as best we can...working on the sound levels with Terry. On some platforms people reported hearing Terry find, and other platforms...not so much. So here is another go at it.
We hope you enjoy, and thanks for your patience.
Season 1 | Episode 23 | Special Guest, Founder of Restoration Therapy, Dr. Terry Hargrave
"Practice is the only pathway to change."
--Dr. Terry Hargrave
Today's special guest needs no introduction! We were very excited to have Dr. Terry Hargrave back onto the podcast to discuss a wide range of topics, and it was an opportunity to ask some questions that seem to come up a lot in the RT community.
Terry is the founder of Restoration Therapy and the author of many books -- and ultimately a great friend and mentor not only to us, but to the RT community as a whole. We are beyond thankful to call him friend and to have him join us.
Discussed in this Episode
The Road to Character by David Brooks
The Sacred Journey by Frederick Buechner -- "stewardship of pain" (Part 1) and (Part 2)
Roy Baumeister -- specifically around self-control (emotional self-regulation)
From Lost to Found by Nicole Zasowski
Season 1 | Episode 22 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Steven Perez
Welcome to Episode 22 of the RT Dialogue. In Season 1 we have been busy geting to know different members of the Restoration Therapy community, and it's been a really enjoyable experience. We hope you have enjoyed it as much as we have.
Spotify | Apple | YouTube
In this episode we spend time with Steven Perez who is an LPC on staff at the Restoration Therapy Center of San Diego and is also a Level 2 Restoration Therapist.
A lot of you read his bio on our RT Dialogue Substack, as well as seeing his name come through your emails for the Restoration Therapy Consultation Group that meets each month online (3rd Thursday of the month -- email Steven if you want to get on that list).
One of the things that you may have noticed in previous episodes, or in other interactions with the RT community -- is a growing desire to be more experiential in the room and move people into practice. Steven has a real gift for helping individuals and couples work through their 4 steps in a really experiential and empowering way, and we were eager for him to talk about it, as well as demonstrate it.
We hope you enjoy this episode.
Resources Mentioned in this Episode
Henri Nouwen (and more specifically In the Name of Jesus)
Season 1 | Episode 21 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Chuck Roberts
We really enjoyed getting to dive deep with our latest guest -- having met him more than a decade ago at a local church workshop, and then getting to spend time with him at the RT Summit this last February.
Chuck Roberts is a Level 1 Restoration Therapy Therapist, and is in private practice at Life Restoration SOULutions -- which is part of the group practice Christian Counseling in Dallas.
Chuck has a passion for working with couples and men, and he spends a significant amount of time working with men and sex addiction. We discussed Chuck's interest in intensive work and his involvement in Restoring the Soul Weekend in Colorado, which was founded and is directed by Michael John Cusick.
Chuck also studied under the late Dr. Larry Crabb which opened up some great stories about his influence on Chuck's life and the work he does.
We hope you enjoy the episode.
Mentioned in this Episode
Hypnotist Andrew Johnson and his apps
The Essential Humility of Marriage by Terry Hargrave
Restoration Therapy by Terry Hargrave
Inside Out by Larry Crabb
Connecting by Larry Crabb
The Silence of Adam by Larry Crabb
Andrew Huberman and the physiological sigh
Things Above Podcast by James Bryan Smith
Renovare and Learning to Hear God
Season 1 | Episode 20 | Special Guest, RT Therapist and TWU Professor, Dr. Mike Bishop
We were on a little bit of a break over the last few weeks as summer was in full swing and we were traveling a bit.
But we are very excited to be back recording podcast episodes, and it was a lot of fun to ramp back up with Dr. Mike Bishop who is a Level II Restoration Therapist and Professor of Counseling at TWU (Texas Wesleyan University).
As you will pick up in this episode, Dr. Bishop brings a lot of fun and humor into his work and we really enjoyed covering a lot of ground with him -- from his early days of meeting Terry Hargrave when they were in graduate school together, to hearing more about the development of RT over the years and when he "caught it".
Dr. Bishop is in an unique role as a professor as well, and it is evident that he has been playing a vital role in bringing the beauty of Restoration Therapy to his students (i.e. previous podcast guests, Bisola Adediji, and Dr. Ulrica Kassar).
Hopefully you all will get to meet Dr. Bishop in person at some point soon as he is a delight to be around and a huge gift to the RT community.
Season 1 | Episode 19 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Dr. Ulrica "Tasha" Kassar
We are really loving this journey connecting with therapists in the RT Community. It's amazing to hear the stories of how people came into discovering and falling in love with the Restoration Therapy model.
In this episode we connected with Dr. Ulrica Kassar (who was brought to our attention by our last guest -- Bisola Adediji) who is the Founder and CEO of Chosen Counseling and Coaching Services. Dr. Kassar came across RT and met Dr. Terry Hargrave at the Meet the Master Seminar at Texas Wesleyan University where she completed her Ph.D. in Marriage and Family Therapy.
Dr. Kassar has a passion for helping client navigate their "middle moments" and she brings into the work with her clients such a rich experience both personally and professionally.
Near the end of the episode when we discuss Restoration Therapy and theological integration, Dr. Kassar shared with us her character study she did with some women of the biblical character Hagar. In that discussion we mentioned a couple of books that bring attention to specific female biblical characters that are often overlooked and are on the underside of oppression not only within the text, but often within modern scholarship.
They are:
Texts of Terror: Literary-Feminist Readings of Biblical Narratives by Phyllis Trible,
The Marys of the Bible: The Original #MeToo Movement by Boaz Johnson,
Daring Joy: What Six Women in the Bible Teach Us About the Power of Celebration When It Feels Risky, Complicated, and Even Impossible by Nicole Zasowski.
Season 1 | Episode 18 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Bisola Adediji
We really loved today's episode for a lot of reasons, but in particular Bisola Adediji is our first LMFT-A (associate) that we have had on the podcast, so we were really looking forward to hearing her newer journey coming into RT.
Bisola is a therapist at Resilient Roots Counseling in Garland, TX and she shared about her passions for working with the mother-daughter relationship, and working with immigrants, particularly from Africa, where she is a "1.5" generation from Nigeria -- born in New York and raised in Alabama.
When speaking of Restoration Therapy she said something that really caught my attention -- "God arrested me with RT". How many of us in the RT community can echo that sentiment -- where it feels like we encountered RT and that was it.
Bisola has a lot of interests and we are really excited for her voice and the ongoing contributions we know she will be making to this community and many others for years to come.
Make sure to check out Bisola on Instagram
Books Mentioned in the Episode
Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy by Terry Hargrave and Franz Pfizer
Advances and Techniques in Restoration Therapy by Terry Hargrave, Nicole Zasowski and Miyoung Yoon Hammer
Your Pain Has a Name: A Therapist's Invitation to Understanding Your Story and Sorting Out Who You Are from What Hurts by Monica DiCristina
The Garden Within: Where the War with Your Emotions Ends and Your Most Powerful Life Begins by Anita Phillips
The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself by Ron and Nan Deal
The Teenage Brain: A Neuroscientist's Survival Guide to Raising Adolescents and Young Adults by Frances Jensen and Amy Ellis Nutt
Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe
The Ragamuffin Gospel: Good News for the Bedraggled, Beat Up, and Burnt Out by Brennan Manning
Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience by Brene Brown
The Upgrade: How the Female Brain Gets Stronger and Better in Midlife and Beyond by Louann Brizendine
Season 1 | Episode 17 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Jason Wilkinson
We had a fun time connecting with Restoration Therapist Jason Wilkinson on this week’s podcast. Jason lives in the Pacific Northwest and practices at Wellspace in Tigard, OR.
[You can listen and watch this episode on Spotify | Apple | YouTube]
Jason is a Level II Restoration Therapist and RT Consultant and Level 1 trainer. He has a long and rich history in youth ministry and is also a graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary’s MDiv program and George Fox University’s MA program.
Every RT therapist has their own unique journey to this model and it was great to hear how Jason found his way to Restoration Therapy. And we really appreciated Jason being so open in this episode and sharing about his own personal journey as he navigated his son’s cancer diagnosis, treatment and recovery process — we were reminded in this conversation the concept of being good stewards of our pain.
Check out this episode and listen for a couple of great interventions Jason has been using with clients.
Season 1 | Episode 16 | The Notecard Intervention
In this episode we discuss the notecard intervention that we teach in the Restoration Therapy anxiety intensives training.
We hope you find it insightful and that you can put it into practice in your sessions.
Season 1 | Episode 15 | Restoration Therapy Roundup
Welcome to the RT Dialogue with Lance Ahl and Rhett Smith.
In this episode we decided to do something a little different. There are a lot of things happening in the world of Restoration Therapy -- many that we know about, and many that we do not. So in this episode we take some time to talk about all the things happening (intensives, local gatherings, summits, books, etc.).
Books
The Mindful Marriage by Ron and Nan Deal
Your Pain Has A Name by Monica DiCristina
Daring Joy by Nicola Zasowski
Restoration Therapy
Turning from Anxiety Intensives
Restoration Therapy Training
Boone Center Resources, Events, Etc.
We love Restoration Therapy and its community, and we are hoping to shine a light on all the things going on.
If you want us to share what you are up to, please drop us a comment in this post, or email us at restorationtherapydialogue@gmail.com
Season 1 | Episode 14 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Justin Little
What an awesome conversation we had with Justin Little, who is the Clinical Director at Forage Wellness Collective in Sisters, Oregon. ( You can listen/watch this conversation on Spotify | Apple | YouTube).
Justin is a creative soul and it comes out in our conversation that he loves bringing creativity into his life and work. We cover his beautiful journey to Restoration Therapy and the corresponding journey of forgiveness that he was also meandering down. While sharing his own story, Justin walks us through the Restoration Therapy model of forgiveness.
Justin also loves TV and film and music, and we had some fun talking about some movies where he see the model of Restoration Therapy coming to life. We also talked about his idea of launching a new RT podcast called Therapy in the Wild, where he explores the intersection of the big screen and RT. We can't wait to hear that first episode and follow that journey.
Links from the Episode:
Forgiveness Handout (1)
747KB ∙ PDF file
A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood with Tom Hanks as Mr. Rogers.
Season 1 | Episode 13 | Special Guest, RT Therapist & Author Clint Davis
We were excited to finally get Restoration Therapist Clint Davis on the podcast. Clint has a large practice in Louisiana called Clint Davis Counseling and Integrative Wellness where they provide a wide range of services.
It was great to hear his personal story and journey to Restoration Therapy during his time at Fuller Theological Seminary. We cover a variety of topics in this episode, but really went in deep on his passion around equipping parents to help their kids navigate some of life's most difficult challenges.
Clint is the host of the Asking Why Podcast, popular speaker, and author of the book, Building Better Bridges: A Guidebook to Having Difficult Discussions That Can Save Our Children.
Check out his TEDx talk, The Sex Talks We Never Had, That Can Save Our Kids.
Season 1 | Episode 12 | Anxiety Roundtable w/Special Guests Terry Hargrave, Meghan Eaken, Tanner Hargrove and Nicole Zasowski
"Anxiety is something you do in response to emotional dysregulation...Anxiety is ruminating on fear to the point where a person trains the brain to continue ruminating, that actually injures their identity and sense of safety." -- Terry Hargrave
Anxiety is such an important topic as the number of people diagnosed with anxiety each year is on the increase, and the public conversation around it is at an all time high.
We feel that Restoration Therapy has a unique voice in this conversation as we see anxiety as something we do -- a coping behavior -- rather than a feeling. That being said you will hear in this conversation that "anxiety is a choice", and how we can position ourselves in such a way to help empower our clients to make radical interventions in regards to anxiety.
The Roundtable Panel
In this conversation, our podcasts hosts Lance Ahl and Rhett Smith welcomed Terry Hargrave, Meghan Eaken, Tanner Hargrove and Nicole Zasowski to discuss a wide ranging discussion about anxiety.
Rhett Smith is a therapist and author, writing the The Anxious Christian back in 2012 -- and in 2016 delivering the lecture on anxiety and fear at the RT Summit, which led him to delve more into the topic of anxiety and how RT can bring about healing. In 2019 he began co-creating the Turning from Anxiety RT intensive model, co-leading its initial pilot intensives, and training other RT therapists in the model. Rhett is currently working on an RT book about anxiety.
Lance Ahl is a therapist and director of the Restoration Therapy Center in Southern California. Lance wrote his doctoral dissertation "Arresting Anxiety: Experiential Training Model for Utilizing Intensive Restoration Therapy", which has become a valuable resource for the ongoing development of the RT Intensive model. Lance has been leading anxiety intensives and working on continuing interventions around anxiety.
Terry Hargrave is of course the founder of Restoration Therapy and the author of many therapy books. It is his valuable insight into anxiety that led him on this journey to begin the development of the anxiety intensive model. His insight around anxiety as a coping strategy and the powerful role that rumination plays in perpetuating the problem, has helped him develop new interventions like Stop, Turn, Slow.
Meghan Eaken has been leading the way in the development of the Restoration Coaching Model , leading anxiety intensives, and been developing a powerful online model to help people break free from their anxiety -- check out her program, Your Grown Up Voice.
Nicole Zasowski is a therapist and author of several best selling books like From Lost to Found and What if it's Wonderful? She also co-authored the Restoration Therapy book Advance Techniques in Restoration Therapy and co-authored another book with Terry Hargrave, Families in Forgiveness. Nicole has been helping thousands of people navigate their anxiety through the help of Restoration Therapy in her weekly Therapy Thursdays on her Instagram.
Tanner Hargrove is a therapist and professor, as well as the clinical director of the marriage intensive, The Hideaway Experience. He helped develop the Restoration Therapy intensive model and co-led the initial pilot intensives and anxiety model trainings. Tanner's expertise in mindfulness practices and practical interventions helped develop a lot of the tools that are instrumental in the intervention of anxiety.
Resources Mentioned in the Episode
Turning from Anxiety Intensives
Relate Strong anxiety resources
Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy
Advances and Techniques in Restoration Therapy
Season 1 | Episode 11 | Special Guest, RT Therapist & Fuller Seminary Adjunct Professor, Michael Piciucco
This was such a fun and rich conversation on this week's episode with Michael Piciucco, as we explored territory around embodying truth in the Restoration Therapy model, and whole range of other ideas.
Michael is a Level II Restoration Therapy therapist in practice in Glendale, AZ at Arrowhead Family Systems, as well as an adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary in Phoenix, AZ.
We hope you really enjoy this episode and that you learn some new ideas about interventions with clients around embodying truth.
Mentioned in the Episode:
The Courage to Be by Paul Tillich
The Stewardship of Pain by Frederick Buechner
Season 1 | Episode 10 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Stephenie Lievense
This was such a great time talking with Stephenie as she helped us think through how we navigate safety in a world that is often not safe.
One of the challenges many therapists face in working with clients is how to empower clients to find safety in the midst of difficult circumstances. We appreciate Stephenie's willingness and vulnerability in helping us find our way forward.
And we are so thankful for her ongoing engagement and contributions to the RT community.
Stephenie is the founder and director of La Canada Family Therapy, adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, and Level II Certified Restoration Therapist.
Season 1 | Episode 9 | Special Guest, RT Therapist and Coach Meghan Eaken
It was so great to have Meghan on the RT Dialogue podcast, as it has been a conversation we have been looking to for a long time. Meghan is very active in the RT community, and has been trained as an RT Therapist and Restoration Coach.
In this episode we explore what Restoration Coaching is, and the differences between therapy and coaching. The the heart of both her love of therapy and coaching is the RT model.
We look forward to having Meghan back on to explore more this growing world of Restoration Coaching.
Meghan's Links
Meghan's Coaching Program: Anxiety Break Up Bootcamp
Season 1 | Episode 8 | Lance & Rhett Explore Self-Regulation vs. Co-Regulation
If there is any episode to date that I would describe as riffing conversation, it would be this one. In this episode we explore the topic of self-regulation versus co-regulation.
As we look at the field of psychology and the practice of therapy, many models are moving in one of these directions -- towards co-regulation, or towards self-regulation.
One of the differentiating aspects of Restoration Therapy is its emphasis on self-regulation. And through we have learned much from a wide variety of models that move in the direction of co-regulation, we talk through the importance of self-regulation, especially in work with couples.
In this episode we also explore theological and literary examples of self-regulation, some of which are linked below.
We consider this to be an evolving conversation with a lot of nuance. And so we are interested in your thoughts on this divergence of regulation practices, and how it shows up in your own life and practice.
Literary links from the episode:
Section quoted from Rainer Maria Rilke, from Letters to a Young Poet
Section quoted from Kahlil Gibran, On Marriage, from The Prophet
Season 1 | Episode 7 | Special Guest, RT Therapist and Author of The MIndful Marriage, Ron Deal
We had such a fun and deep conversation with Ron Deal, who many know in the Restoration Therapy community. Ron is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, author, podcaster, speaker, and is highly sought after for his work with blended families and marriage enrichment.
Ron and his wife Nan, along with Terry and Sharon Hargrave are the authors of The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself.
We talked to Ron about working with blended families, dove deep into the importance of humility in marriage, and how significant that is in the work of Restoration Therapy. And how the RT model is essentially discipleship.
Check out this episode as I hope you learn something of use for your own therapy and ministry work, as well as the personal application to your own life.
And don't forget to register for the virtual Smart Stepfamily Therapy Training -- May 22 and 23.
Check out Ron's links:
Season 1 | Episode 6 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Monica DiCristina
We are so excited to welcome Restoration Therapist Monica DiCristina to Episode 6 of the RT Dialogue Podcast.
We had such a fun and meaningful conversation with Monica, covering a wide array of topics, and so we are thankful to be able to share this with you.
Monica is a therapist in private practice in Atlanta, and she is the author of the new book, Your Pain Has a Name: A Therapist's Invitation to Understanding Your Story and Sorting Out Who You Are From What Hurts. She is also the podcast host of her show Still Becoming.
You can find out more about Monica and her work by visiting her website.
Season 1 | Episode 5 | Co-Hosts Lance Ahl & Rhett Smith Discuss Anxiety Intensive Model
Welcome back to RT Dialogue, Season 1, Episode 5. On this episode we talk about Lance receiving his doctorate this week, which was focused on anxiety intensives. We discuss how the Restoration Therapy anxiety intensives developed, and ongoing research, development and practice of the intensive model underway.
We also dive into the Stop, Turn, Slow intervention developed by Terry Hargrave during the anxiety intensive pilot.
It was good a fun conversation to have and we look forward to having more guests on the episode after the RT Conference at the end of February 2025.
If you are interested in Anxiety Intensives, you can stay up to date at the Turning from Anxiety website.
Season 1 | Episode 4 | Special Guests, Restoration Therapy Founders Terry and Sharon Hargrave
We were so excited to have Terry and Sharon Hargrave on the RT Dialogue. Not only are they the founders of Restoration Therapy, but we (and many of you) consider them mentors and close friends.
In this episode we explore the origins of Restoration Therapy and the significant iterations along the way.
Terry and Sharon are the authors many books and articles, covering a wide range of topics in therapy, as well as exclusively focused on Restoration Therapy.
We look forward to having them back on to get even deeper into Restoration Therapy and the work they are doing.
Season 1 | Episode 3 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Nicole Zasowski
We are so excited to welcome Restoration Therapist Nicole Zasowski to Episode 3 of the RT Dialogue Podcast.
Many of you know Nicole as the author of beautiful books like From Lost to Found, What If It's Wonderful, and her upcoming Daring Joy Bible Study. Nicole has also co-authored Families and Forgiveness with Terry Hargrave, and Advances and Techniques in Restoration Therapy with Terry Hargrave and Miyoung Yoon Hammer.
We were excited to have you her on this episode to discuss her journey to Restoration Therapy, her Therapy Thursdays, and new techniques and interventions she is currently excited about and experimenting with in her practice.
You can find out more about Nicole and her work at her website as well as follow her on Instagram.
Season 1 | Episode 2 | Special Guest, RT Therapist Michael Cox
Michael Cox is a Licensed Professional Counselor -S in private practice in Pflugerville, TX, just outside of Austin. He is the founder and director of Whole Life Priorities.
and is a Level II Restoration Therapist and RT Trainer.
Lance and Rhett cover a lot of ground in this episode and honestly wish we had more time with Michael. But it's obvious listening to Michael talk about his work that he is passionate about helping adolescents and their families.
We explore RT techniques he is using in his work as well as new insights into RT that he is exploring. We also get into the new book he is working on which is really exciting.
Check out the links below to some resources that were mentioned in the episode:
Whole Brain Child by Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson
The Teen Brain: 7 Things to Know
What neuroscience tells us about the teenage brain
What Teens Need Most, but Aren't Getting, From Parents
Season 1 | Episode 1 | The RT Dialogue with Co-Hosts Lance Ahl & Rhett Smith
Welcome to the launch of RT Dialogue. A conversation within the Restoration Therapy community where we hope to continue to foster community, make connections, and learn and grow around best theories and practices from other practitioners.
In Episode 1, co-hosts Lance Ahl and Rhett Smith talk about their own journeys in coming to Restoration Therapy, while exploring some of their hopes for the new podcast. They also end the show by sharing a Restoration Therapy practice they are really excited about in their work currently.